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Post by Figgles on Jan 28, 2021 3:02:23 GMT
You said this:
"Gopal: he continue to do things which are opposed to his realization"
Can you give a specific example of something he's done that for you confirms beyond a doubt that he becomes blamefully angry?
Getting angry while he strongly proclaims to have realized the truth of 'personal self-hood is illusion'. Can you offer up an actual quote? |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 28, 2021 3:03:27 GMT
You still have not realized that there is absolutely no-thing 'creating the dream.'
Nor is there a 'process of creation.'
I generally don't even use the term 'creation' other than to say that creation=perception, because to the SVP-identified person, the term 'creation' immediately invokes the idea of a process and of a someone/something THAT creates. There is no such thing. Only seeing through the SVP will reveal that though.
Seeing that there is no process of creation and nothing that creates anything requires a realization. Realization trumps anything that appears in the dream, including 'direct seeing of something that appears.' But I maintain, what you are insisting to be 'direct seeing,' really is not. You've observed a particular pattern of correlated appearances in the dream and have concluded that some of them are causal to/creative catalysts to the other.
Your knowing that you are creating the dream, is nothing more than a delusion. When an SVP is present, it may 'seem like' there is a you that is 'doing' the creating, but that's just a delusion that rides along with the imagined SVP. Nothing more.
I am saying dream is being created you are saying dream is not being created. So I consider that you haven't realized yet. You consider I haven't realized yet. So I don't have any way other than wait for you to see the truth.The seeing that I am a something that catalyzes a process of creation, is NOT Truth. It's a delusion. |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 28, 2021 3:06:42 GMT
Truth does not lie within the dream. And that's where you are looking when you arrive at your knowledge that you are creating the dream.
Realization, seeing beyond the dream, reveals all 'in the dream' knowledge to be empty and devoid of Truth.
Creation, as a process, is one of the ideas that gets seen to be an illusion in SR.
Your decision impacts the unfolding universe in a different way. Just try to observe when you make a clear decision in your life. It will tell you the truth as to how beautiful creator you are! Time is an illusion. The 'clear decision' that experientially appears 'before' the desired manifestion, is not actually causal to the manifestation. The clear decision and the manifestation are correlates only. Remember; The story is ultimately, One-singular, seamless happening.
When you see through time....you also see through "process" and in that, ideas about LOA, also get seen for what they are. |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 28, 2021 3:59:35 GMT
Getting angry while he strongly proclaims to have realized the truth of 'personal self-hood is illusion'. Can you offer up an actual quote? He is saying that he is getting angry. He is saying that he has seen through the illusion of personal self-hood. What else you want? I hope you know that! |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 28, 2021 4:02:03 GMT
I am saying that you still haven't realized because you still don't know the truth that you are creating the reality! The question of SVP wouldn't even rise if you know you are creating the reality, your focus will be changed to inner as to how creation is unfolding from inner to outer.
The question of the SVP does NOT arise once it's been seen through.
And you have it backwards; Absent an SVP, there is no longer an urge/drive to try to manipulatively control how the story unfolds through directing focus/feeling, as that urge/drive is fuelled by the imagined SVP.
A strong interest to focus upon paying attention to inner so as to impact outer, IS the realm of the SVP.
Absent the SVP, the distinction between what you are denoting as inner/outer merges into the singular, present, where there is a fundamental acceptance of all of it.
In your nightly dream, you suddenly become lucid, would you need to see through the illusion of separation then? |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 28, 2021 4:05:20 GMT
If expectation is arising, then that's arising out of the delusion, If controlling arising then it's arising out of the delusion. You must be defining 'expectation' as something different from me then. As you post in response to me, each time, focusing upon the best words you can use to try to make me understand what you are saying, in the midst of us not agreeing, isn't there an 'expectation' there on your part of my understanding of those words? As I turn on my kettle to make tea, there is an expectation present that the cold water, which is not good to make tea with, will boil....rendering it good for making tea with. "Change" does "happen for sure" when inner acceptance is the case, because "inner acceptance" is itself a radical change from non-acceptance. That alone changes everything even if/when the appearing condition that is now accepted as fundamentally perfect, is still appearing. It's not possible to do. Fundamental acceptance is NOT a doing...is not in the hands of the person. Fundamental acceptance is an absence that hinges upon the absence of the SVP. Making tea is absolutely under your control, eh? Going to shop and buying a notebook is absolutely in my control, eh? Why do you need to expect it to happen? You know you can do it by yourself, yes?
That's what I am saying too. So you agree with me about the manifestation change in the outer world as soon as your inner acceptance happens?
Yes, agree!
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Post by Gopal on Jan 28, 2021 4:13:23 GMT
NOPE! If he strongly desires for a walk for a long time after he got paralyzed and suddenly out of realization or some other reason he completely accepts his current condition, then he will walk again.
Okay. I'm glad you've laid it out as stark as this because now it's crystal clear what you mean. While there are accounts of this type of unfolding that happen and while I've experienced this kind of unfolding in my own life many times, that does not make it Truth.
The strong desire, the acceptance of the condition, the subsequent walking again, are all 'correlated,' yes, but it's a mistake of mind to determine that the strong desire and then the acceptance are actually "causal" or a creative catalyst to the manifestation of walking.
I completely understand that from the point of view of the person, it is a highly comforting idea that all your strong desires you are currently holding at present, if you can just somehow come to accept the condition of lack that launched that desire, will for absolute certain come to manifestation.
A crippled man who 'strongly desires' to walk again, who does not fundamentally accept his condition, but then sees through the SVP and thus, sees the fundamental perfection of it all, even his bodily condition and inability to walk, has had a major shift. He's gone from suffering due to his condition, to accepting it and no longer suffering for it. In short, he's at peace regardless of walking or not. And that absence DOES manifest within experience, just not in any way that can be absolutely, for certain, predicted, beyond the absence of experiential suffering.
Even if it went that way every time for you, you'd be in delusion to say that you know for absolute certain that's how creation of the dream works, because you are looking to dream content (which is nothing more than an empty appearance) to arrive at Truth. It's fine to talk about the fact that that's how you have observed experience unfolding....to talk about certain appearances and realizations and how they correlate to certain manifestations, but the moment you insist that to be Truth, you've stepped into delusion.
The absence of the experience of suffering is no small thing! you may think that being crippled and then being able to walk is the end all and be all...the pot of gold that trumps all else, but really, the absence of the SVP...the absence of suffering.....freedom FROM all conditions of the dream, trumps any desired, improved condition you could ever imagine.
I am talking about when you know change is possible and you keep trying to attain it. This change would not happen as long as you try, once after the acceptance, it definitely changes, but you say it need not to change. I say it definitely changes. Crippled man can't desire for walking, so that's not possible there. Once after the inner acceptance, it tremendously manifest the thing you have desired so far. Remember, we believe what we see, we create what we believe.
Your writing shows me that you have perfectly understood me but still you insist that outer world need not to change, but I say it definitely changes when you know it's possible before your inner acceptance.
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Post by Gopal on Jan 28, 2021 4:16:30 GMT
You are in delusion of moving from A to B .Expecting the future itself is not allowing that particular future to be unfolded. So, if you look to the future, where I am reading a post you are currently writing, and you are 'expecting' me to grasp the meaning of the words you are writing, then you are 'not allowing that particular future to be unfolded'? You are always talking about something as 'expectation' which is under your control, but when I use the word expectation, I mean to talk about something which is not in your control. |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 28, 2021 4:18:48 GMT
I am saying dream is being created you are saying dream is not being created. So I consider that you haven't realized yet. You consider I haven't realized yet. So I don't have any way other than wait for you to see the truth.The seeing that I am a something that catalyzes a process of creation, is NOT Truth. It's a delusion. Yes. It's highly surprise that you are correct this time. |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 28, 2021 4:20:47 GMT
Your decision impacts the unfolding universe in a different way. Just try to observe when you make a clear decision in your life. It will tell you the truth as to how beautiful creator you are! Time is an illusion. The 'clear decision' that experientially appears 'before' the desired manifestion, is not actually causal to the manifestation. The clear decision and the manifestation are correlates only. Remember; The story is ultimately, One-singular, seamless happening.
When you see through time....you also see through "process" and in that, ideas about LOA, also get seen for what they are. You believe what you see, you create what you believe. What you see is not your hand! |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 28, 2021 5:21:53 GMT
Can you offer up an actual quote? He is saying that he has seen through the illusion of personal self-hood. What else you want? I hope you know that! I would like to see an actual quote that demonstrates this obvious blameful anger you say he's demonstrated. There have been times where it seemed tome too, he was demonstrating that, but I wasn't so certain as to bet the farm on it.
And that really is the point; Blameful anger on a forum, is subject to the one who thinks he is seeing it. Other than someone admitting that they still hold the people in their experience to be fundamentally responsible (at blame) for thing that "go wrong," all we have to go on is words on a screen. Interpretation is usually involved.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 28, 2021 5:23:08 GMT
The question of the SVP does NOT arise once it's been seen through.
And you have it backwards; Absent an SVP, there is no longer an urge/drive to try to manipulatively control how the story unfolds through directing focus/feeling, as that urge/drive is fuelled by the imagined SVP.
A strong interest to focus upon paying attention to inner so as to impact outer, IS the realm of the SVP.
Absent the SVP, the distinction between what you are denoting as inner/outer merges into the singular, present, where there is a fundamental acceptance of all of it.
In your nightly dream, you suddenly become lucid, would you need to see through the illusion of separation then? Yes. Lucidity within a night-time dream, can still have an SVP in play. |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 28, 2021 5:42:37 GMT
You still have not realized that there is absolutely no-thing 'creating the dream.'
Nor is there a 'process of creation.'
I generally don't even use the term 'creation' other than to say that creation=perception, because to the SVP-identified person, the term 'creation' immediately invokes the idea of a process and of a someone/something THAT creates. There is no such thing. Only seeing through the SVP will reveal that though.
Seeing that there is no process of creation and nothing that creates anything requires a realization. Realization trumps anything that appears in the dream, including 'direct seeing of something that appears.' But I maintain, what you are insisting to be 'direct seeing,' really is not. You've observed a particular pattern of correlated appearances in the dream and have concluded that some of them are causal to/creative catalysts to the other.
Your knowing that you are creating the dream, is nothing more than a delusion. When an SVP is present, it may 'seem like' there is a you that is 'doing' the creating, but that's just a delusion that rides along with the imagined SVP. Nothing more.
I am saying dream is being created you are saying dream is not being created. So I consider that you haven't realized yet. You consider I haven't realized yet. So I don't have any way other than wait for you to see the truth.Do you agree or disagree that "Truth" hinges upon "realization" and that all realization = a seeing through/seeing of what is not so? |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 28, 2021 5:50:54 GMT
Okay. I'm glad you've laid it out as stark as this because now it's crystal clear what you mean. While there are accounts of this type of unfolding that happen and while I've experienced this kind of unfolding in my own life many times, that does not make it Truth.
The strong desire, the acceptance of the condition, the subsequent walking again, are all 'correlated,' yes, but it's a mistake of mind to determine that the strong desire and then the acceptance are actually "causal" or a creative catalyst to the manifestation of walking.
I completely understand that from the point of view of the person, it is a highly comforting idea that all your strong desires you are currently holding at present, if you can just somehow come to accept the condition of lack that launched that desire, will for absolute certain come to manifestation.
A crippled man who 'strongly desires' to walk again, who does not fundamentally accept his condition, but then sees through the SVP and thus, sees the fundamental perfection of it all, even his bodily condition and inability to walk, has had a major shift. He's gone from suffering due to his condition, to accepting it and no longer suffering for it. In short, he's at peace regardless of walking or not. And that absence DOES manifest within experience, just not in any way that can be absolutely, for certain, predicted, beyond the absence of experiential suffering.
Even if it went that way every time for you, you'd be in delusion to say that you know for absolute certain that's how creation of the dream works, because you are looking to dream content (which is nothing more than an empty appearance) to arrive at Truth. It's fine to talk about the fact that that's how you have observed experience unfolding....to talk about certain appearances and realizations and how they correlate to certain manifestations, but the moment you insist that to be Truth, you've stepped into delusion.
The absence of the experience of suffering is no small thing! you may think that being crippled and then being able to walk is the end all and be all...the pot of gold that trumps all else, but really, the absence of the SVP...the absence of suffering.....freedom FROM all conditions of the dream, trumps any desired, improved condition you could ever imagine.
I am talking about when you know change is possible and you keep trying to attain it. This change would not happen as long as you try, once after the acceptance, it definitely changes, but you say it need not to change. I say it definitely changes. Crippled man can't desire for walking, so that's not possible there. Once after the inner acceptance, it tremendously manifest the thing you have desired so far. Remember, we believe what we see, we create what we believe.
Your writing shows me that you have perfectly understood me but still you insist that outer world need not to change, but I say it definitely changes when you know it's possible before your inner acceptance.
I'm not insisting that at all. I say the outer world DOES change....an experienced sense of peace in the face of being crippled, (for example) IS a change in condition, perhaps just not the one that you think is of most value. |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 28, 2021 5:55:15 GMT
So, if you look to the future, where I am reading a post you are currently writing, and you are 'expecting' me to grasp the meaning of the words you are writing, then you are 'not allowing that particular future to be unfolded'? You are always talking about something as 'expectation' which is under your control, but when I use the word expectation, I mean to talk about something which is not in your control. Where do you get the control bit? Expectation is just the sense that what I am imagining will come to be. It's just a sense of where the story is going. There is no control/controller involved in that.
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