|
|
Post by Gopal on Jan 24, 2021 3:07:41 GMT
It require a direct that you are actually creating the dream. It's not easy to see. It's also a kind of direct seeing that you are creating the dream.
You are only imagining 'a something that creates the dream' and you are mistaken that you are directly seeing such. An entity that creates is 'an illusion,' as is 'actual causation between dream appearances.'
And again, direct seeing is NOT "realization." Realization is always non-conceptual and requires pointers to try to talk about it.
Then you still do not know the truth. You are actually creating the dream. You see I am saying you something which you haven't seen yet so you can't find any reference to what I am talking unless you suddenly find the truth oneday. Let me wait for the day. |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Jan 24, 2021 3:08:29 GMT
All our conversation ends up in the place where you have directly seen or not. It seems to be you haven't seen anything bigger like ZD. So whatever I talk here doesn't make any sense to you.
I never said that roller-coaster will cease to exist. Consciousness continue to create rollercoaster forever, it dips very deep or not depends upon how we see the roller-coaster. If one tries to force the happiness side of the roller-coaster, then he has to dip more when he comes to unhappiness side of the roller-coaster. Once one sees through the illusion, At first there is a inner change, it will place you into the mode where you don't need any outer world change but sooner you may notice that all fabricated outer world gets collapsed. If you haven't seen this, It's 100 percent sure that you still haven't had bigger realization towards the reality.
No....All our conversations end up in the place where there's either been a realization/seeing through of the SVP or not.
When the SVP is truly absent (which is different from a mere conceptual idea about there being no SVP) you stop looking TO experience for Truth.
You are mistaking what seems to you to be "a direct experience" with realization/Truth. What you're doing is applying a mental overlay, mind's conclusion TO experience/appearances.
I am saying that you still haven't realized because you still don't know the truth that you are creating the reality! The question of SVP wouldn't even rise if you know you are creating the reality, your focus will be changed to inner as to how creation is unfolding from inner to outer.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Jan 24, 2021 3:14:26 GMT
Then you are still missing something. Any expectation or expecting any kind of desirable mind state or desirable change is still an illusion. Universe is creating right now in this moment, it doesn't need to go from A to B. Expectation itself, re: how things will unfold, is not an illusion. It's an appearance within the dream. It's an arising facet of experience and expectation as an arising facet of experience, does not have illusion as it's basis.
If expectation is arising, then that's arising out of the delusion, If controlling arising then it's arising out of the delusion. If you are expecting a reality, then that's out of the delusion that dreaming moving towards your improvement. That would never happen. But change happens for sure only when there is an inner acceptance towards what's happening right now and it's not easy to do. |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Jan 24, 2021 3:17:32 GMT
Then you are still missing something. Any expectation or expecting any kind of desirable mind state or desirable change is still an illusion. Universe is creating right now in this moment, it doesn't need to go from A to B. Expectation itself, re: how things will unfold, is not an illusion. It's an appearance within the dream. It's an arising facet of experience and expectation as an arising facet of experience, does not have illusion as it's basis.
Absolute certainty about how things will unfold, on the other hand, IS based upon a delusion....a mistake of mind that says that past experience can be relied upon to predict with absolutely certainty, how the story will move. And that's really what you are relying upon when you say you've observed your experience and have seen that when you accept an appearing condition, that basic appearing condition always disappears.
When you insist that current conditions that are not personally liked, will for certain, move into conditions that are personally liked once they are accepted, you are demonstrating that delusion.
Realizing the Truth does not change the basic condition that is appearing, it changes the way the condition is regarded...how it is seen.
For example, A dude who becomes paralyzed in a fall from a cliff and can no longer walk, who accepts his condition, will not necessarily regain his ability to walk just because he accepts the situation. And accepting the situation does not mean that given the choice, he'd still prefer it if he could walk, it just means that his peace does not depend upon being able to walk.
NOPE! If he strongly desires for a walk for a long time after he got paralyzed and suddenly out of realization or some other reason he completely accepts his current condition, then he will walk again.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Jan 24, 2021 3:19:31 GMT
Then you are still missing something. Any expectation or expecting any kind of desirable mind state or desirable change is still an illusion. Universe is creating right now in this moment, it doesn't need to go from A to B. Yes! Right now in this moment, whatever is appearing, is not caused by or created by anything that supposedly happened 'before.' If you truly saw that creation is HERE....NOW.... you'd stop talking about how acceptance in this moment 'creates' the content of the next moment. You are in delusion of moving from A to B .Expecting the future itself is not allowing that particular future to be unfolded. |
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Jan 24, 2021 18:14:11 GMT
Direct seeing is NOT "realization."
Realization is always a seeing through....a subtraction of previous knowledge....an unknowing.....a seeing of what is NOT so.
As I've said before, I have no issue with talking about sequential unfolding story/experience and the ways in which thoughts, beliefs, feeling "correlate" with subsequent manifestation. It's important to see though that we're talking 'correlation only' and not causation. LOA posits causation.
My point was you still do not know that you are creating the dream. That need a direct seeing. You simply can't assume. You still have not realized that there is absolutely no-thing 'creating the dream.'
Nor is there a 'process of creation.'
I generally don't even use the term 'creation' other than to say that creation=perception, because to the SVP-identified person, the term 'creation' immediately invokes the idea of a process and of a someone/something THAT creates. There is no such thing. Only seeing through the SVP will reveal that though.
Seeing that there is no process of creation and nothing that creates anything requires a realization. Realization trumps anything that appears in the dream, including 'direct seeing of something that appears.' But I maintain, what you are insisting to be 'direct seeing,' really is not. You've observed a particular pattern of correlated appearances in the dream and have concluded that some of them are causal to/creative catalysts to the other.
Your knowing that you are creating the dream, is nothing more than a delusion. When an SVP is present, it may 'seem like' there is a you that is 'doing' the creating, but that's just a delusion that rides along with the imagined SVP. Nothing more.
|
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Jan 24, 2021 18:16:18 GMT
ZD says personal self-hood is illusion but gets angry. When one says personal self-hood is illusion he can't find blame in others. You said this:
"Gopal: he continue to do things which are opposed to his realization"
Can you give a specific example of something he's done that for you confirms beyond a doubt that he becomes blamefully angry?
|
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Jan 24, 2021 18:18:33 GMT
You are only imagining 'a something that creates the dream' and you are mistaken that you are directly seeing such. An entity that creates is 'an illusion,' as is 'actual causation between dream appearances.'
And again, direct seeing is NOT "realization." Realization is always non-conceptual and requires pointers to try to talk about it.
You are actually creating the dream. You see I am saying you something which you haven't seen yet so you can't find any reference to what I am talking unless you suddenly find the truth oneday. Let me wait for the day. Truth does not lie within the dream. And that's where you are looking when you arrive at your knowledge that you are creating the dream.
Realization, seeing beyond the dream, reveals all 'in the dream' knowledge to be empty and devoid of Truth.
Creation, as a process, is one of the ideas that gets seen to be an illusion in SR.
|
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Jan 24, 2021 18:23:43 GMT
No....All our conversations end up in the place where there's either been a realization/seeing through of the SVP or not.
When the SVP is truly absent (which is different from a mere conceptual idea about there being no SVP) you stop looking TO experience for Truth.
You are mistaking what seems to you to be "a direct experience" with realization/Truth. What you're doing is applying a mental overlay, mind's conclusion TO experience/appearances.
I am saying that you still haven't realized because you still don't know the truth that you are creating the reality! The question of SVP wouldn't even rise if you know you are creating the reality, your focus will be changed to inner as to how creation is unfolding from inner to outer.
The question of the SVP does NOT arise once it's been seen through.
And you have it backwards; Absent an SVP, there is no longer an urge/drive to try to manipulatively control how the story unfolds through directing focus/feeling, as that urge/drive is fuelled by the imagined SVP.
A strong interest to focus upon paying attention to inner so as to impact outer, IS the realm of the SVP.
Absent the SVP, the distinction between what you are denoting as inner/outer merges into the singular, present, where there is a fundamental acceptance of all of it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Jan 24, 2021 18:30:13 GMT
If expectation is arising, then that's arising out of the delusion, If controlling arising then it's arising out of the delusion. You must be defining 'expectation' as something different from me then. As you post in response to me, each time, focusing upon the best words you can use to try to make me understand what you are saying, in the midst of us not agreeing, isn't there an 'expectation' there on your part of my understanding of those words? As I turn on my kettle to make tea, there is an expectation present that the cold water, which is not good to make tea with, will boil....rendering it good for making tea with. "Change" does "happen for sure" when inner acceptance is the case, because "inner acceptance" is itself a radical change from non-acceptance. That alone changes everything even if/when the appearing condition that is now accepted as fundamentally perfect, is still appearing. It's not possible to do. Fundamental acceptance is NOT a doing...is not in the hands of the person. Fundamental acceptance is an absence that hinges upon the absence of the SVP. |
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Jan 24, 2021 19:01:13 GMT
Expectation itself, re: how things will unfold, is not an illusion. It's an appearance within the dream. It's an arising facet of experience and expectation as an arising facet of experience, does not have illusion as it's basis.
Absolute certainty about how things will unfold, on the other hand, IS based upon a delusion....a mistake of mind that says that past experience can be relied upon to predict with absolutely certainty, how the story will move. And that's really what you are relying upon when you say you've observed your experience and have seen that when you accept an appearing condition, that basic appearing condition always disappears.
When you insist that current conditions that are not personally liked, will for certain, move into conditions that are personally liked once they are accepted, you are demonstrating that delusion.
Realizing the Truth does not change the basic condition that is appearing, it changes the way the condition is regarded...how it is seen.
For example, A dude who becomes paralyzed in a fall from a cliff and can no longer walk, who accepts his condition, will not necessarily regain his ability to walk just because he accepts the situation. And accepting the situation does not mean that given the choice, he'd still prefer it if he could walk, it just means that his peace does not depend upon being able to walk.
NOPE! If he strongly desires for a walk for a long time after he got paralyzed and suddenly out of realization or some other reason he completely accepts his current condition, then he will walk again.
Okay. I'm glad you've laid it out as stark as this because now it's crystal clear what you mean. While there are accounts of this type of unfolding that happen and while I've experienced this kind of unfolding in my own life many times, that does not make it Truth.
The strong desire, the acceptance of the condition, the subsequent walking again, are all 'correlated,' yes, but it's a mistake of mind to determine that the strong desire and then the acceptance are actually "causal" or a creative catalyst to the manifestation of walking.
I completely understand that from the point of view of the person, it is a highly comforting idea that all your strong desires you are currently holding at present, if you can just somehow come to accept the condition of lack that launched that desire, will for absolute certain come to manifestation.
A crippled man who 'strongly desires' to walk again, who does not fundamentally accept his condition, but then sees through the SVP and thus, sees the fundamental perfection of it all, even his bodily condition and inability to walk, has had a major shift. He's gone from suffering due to his condition, to accepting it and no longer suffering for it. In short, he's at peace regardless of walking or not. And that absence DOES manifest within experience, just not in any way that can be absolutely, for certain, predicted, beyond the absence of experiential suffering.
Even if it went that way every time for you, you'd be in delusion to say that you know for absolute certain that's how creation of the dream works, because you are looking to dream content (which is nothing more than an empty appearance) to arrive at Truth. It's fine to talk about the fact that that's how you have observed experience unfolding....to talk about certain appearances and realizations and how they correlate to certain manifestations, but the moment you insist that to be Truth, you've stepped into delusion.
The absence of the experience of suffering is no small thing! you may think that being crippled and then being able to walk is the end all and be all...the pot of gold that trumps all else, but really, the absence of the SVP...the absence of suffering.....freedom FROM all conditions of the dream, trumps any desired, improved condition you could ever imagine.
|
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Jan 24, 2021 19:03:20 GMT
Yes! Right now in this moment, whatever is appearing, is not caused by or created by anything that supposedly happened 'before.' If you truly saw that creation is HERE....NOW.... you'd stop talking about how acceptance in this moment 'creates' the content of the next moment. You are in delusion of moving from A to B .Expecting the future itself is not allowing that particular future to be unfolded. So, if you look to the future, where I am reading a post you are currently writing, and you are 'expecting' me to grasp the meaning of the words you are writing, then you are 'not allowing that particular future to be unfolded'? |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Jan 28, 2021 2:56:52 GMT
My point was you still do not know that you are creating the dream. That need a direct seeing. You simply can't assume. You still have not realized that there is absolutely no-thing 'creating the dream.'
Nor is there a 'process of creation.'
I generally don't even use the term 'creation' other than to say that creation=perception, because to the SVP-identified person, the term 'creation' immediately invokes the idea of a process and of a someone/something THAT creates. There is no such thing. Only seeing through the SVP will reveal that though.
Seeing that there is no process of creation and nothing that creates anything requires a realization. Realization trumps anything that appears in the dream, including 'direct seeing of something that appears.' But I maintain, what you are insisting to be 'direct seeing,' really is not. You've observed a particular pattern of correlated appearances in the dream and have concluded that some of them are causal to/creative catalysts to the other.
Your knowing that you are creating the dream, is nothing more than a delusion. When an SVP is present, it may 'seem like' there is a you that is 'doing' the creating, but that's just a delusion that rides along with the imagined SVP. Nothing more.
I am saying dream is being created you are saying dream is not being created. So I consider that you haven't realized yet. You consider I haven't realized yet. So I don't have any way other than wait for you to see the truth. |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Jan 28, 2021 2:57:49 GMT
ZD says personal self-hood is illusion but gets angry. When one says personal self-hood is illusion he can't find blame in others. You said this:
"Gopal: he continue to do things which are opposed to his realization"
Can you give a specific example of something he's done that for you confirms beyond a doubt that he becomes blamefully angry?
Getting angry while he strongly proclaims to have realized the truth of 'personal self-hood is illusion'. |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Jan 28, 2021 2:59:13 GMT
Then you still do not know the truth. You are actually creating the dream. You see I am saying you something which you haven't seen yet so you can't find any reference to what I am talking unless you suddenly find the truth oneday. Let me wait for the day. Truth does not lie within the dream. And that's where you are looking when you arrive at your knowledge that you are creating the dream.
Realization, seeing beyond the dream, reveals all 'in the dream' knowledge to be empty and devoid of Truth.
Creation, as a process, is one of the ideas that gets seen to be an illusion in SR.
Your decision impacts the unfolding universe in a different way. Just try to observe when you make a clear decision in your life. It will tell you the truth as to how beautiful creator you are! |
|
