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Post by Gopal on Jan 5, 2021 10:23:51 GMT
People say when there is a clarity, there is an inner peace but outer world will remain as it was. But I completely deny that that's not the case. It's very true that we can attain the change in the inner without the need of outer world change but it definitely changes the outer once after the inner change. Change of the situation, change of the people will definitely be the case after the clear seeing. Infinite is not confined by any limitation, in my experience, it can do anything but only thing which stops this creative power is the illusion we believe.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 5, 2021 21:40:42 GMT
People say when there is a clarity, there is an inner peace but outer world will remain as it was. But I completely deny that that's not the case. It's very true that we can attain the change in the inner without the need of outer world change but it definitely changes the outer once after the inner change. Change of the situation, change of the people will definitely be the case after the clear seeing. Infinite is not confined by any limitation, in my experience, it can do anything but only thing which stops this creative power is the illusion we believe. In clarity, the world does very much change. What could be more profound of a change after all than an experience that is now absent an imagined SVP?
As I said in a previous post, as mind becomes informed following SR, the result is a sense of abiding, general equanimity/well-being, sense that regardless of what else is appearing, all is well. That's what it means to be free; Regardless of what's happening, you don't fall into finding it to be "intolerable/fundamentally unacceptable."
The very focus/interest in manipulating feelings so as to try to control the specifics of material manifestation is an indicator of an SVP/resistance to what is/non-acceptance.
You cannot stop life's ups and down no matter how good you think you get at controlling your feelings, but once you make peace with the fact that that's just how experience works, you no longer want to.
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Post by Gopal on Jan 6, 2021 15:02:06 GMT
People say when there is a clarity, there is an inner peace but outer world will remain as it was. But I completely deny that that's not the case. It's very true that we can attain the change in the inner without the need of outer world change but it definitely changes the outer once after the inner change. Change of the situation, change of the people will definitely be the case after the clear seeing. Infinite is not confined by any limitation, in my experience, it can do anything but only thing which stops this creative power is the illusion we believe. In clarity, the world does very much change. What could be more profound of a change after all than an experience that is now absent an imagined SVP?
As I said in a previous post, as mind becomes informed following SR, the result is a sense of abiding, general equanimity/well-being, sense that regardless of what else is appearing, all is well. That's what it means to be free; Regardless of what's happening, you don't fall into finding it to be "intolerable/fundamentally unacceptable."
This thread mainly focuses on whether there should be an outer world manifestation. I am not talking arguing about whether there will be a Peace after your SR. I am mainly talking about outer world manifestation after the inner clearance. Do you agree that outer world would reflect your inner change?
Yes, it is! That's what I am against Enigma's visualization. Do you understand now?
I did not say I can control life's ups and down by controlling the feeling. I did not even talk about ups and down.
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Post by Enigma on Jan 6, 2021 15:18:44 GMT
In clarity, the world does very much change. What could be more profound of a change after all than an experience that is now absent an imagined SVP?
As I said in a previous post, as mind becomes informed following SR, the result is a sense of abiding, general equanimity/well-being, sense that regardless of what else is appearing, all is well. That's what it means to be free; Regardless of what's happening, you don't fall into finding it to be "intolerable/fundamentally unacceptable."
This thread mainly focuses on whether there should be an outer world manifestation. I am not talking arguing about whether there will be a Peace after your SR. I am mainly talking about outer world manifestation after the inner clearance. Do you agree that outer world would reflect your inner change?
Yes, it is! That's what I am against Enigma's visualization. Do you understand now?
I did not say I can control life's ups and down by controlling the feeling. I did not even talk about ups and down.
Visualization, as I have described and used it, it a focus of mind, no different from you visualizing making your breakfast so that you can eat it. No manifestation involved. |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 7, 2021 4:07:13 GMT
This thread mainly focuses on whether there should be an outer world manifestation. I am not talking arguing about whether there will be a Peace after your SR. I am mainly talking about outer world manifestation after the inner clearance. Do you agree that outer world would reflect your inner change? Feelings/emotions/sense about the circumstance are themselves appearances, thus part and parcel of the circumstance (I thought you agreed with that?)....thus, when arising feelings of intolerance towards a particular person fall away due to SR and now a sense of okayness ariseness in experience when you're around that previously intolerable person, your relationship with him has changed and we can say then that the outer world, (the circumstance) HAS changed, even though that person may still remain in your life. A changed relationship, feeling differently about someone whom you could not previously tolerate, is an outer world change, isn't it? Again, I have a problem with the way you divide feelings (inner) from appearing situation/condition (outer). When you feel differently towards a particular condition, the 'situation' as a whole, has changed. No, I don't. What Enigma described with his visualization was not: "manipulating feelings so as to try to control the specifics of material manifestation". Part & parcel of life's ups and downs are feelings themselves. In acceptance, dips in feeling are also accepted. There is no longer any need nor interest to try to boost a particular feeling to something considered more positive. |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 7, 2021 16:11:40 GMT
This thread mainly focuses on whether there should be an outer world manifestation. I am not talking arguing about whether there will be a Peace after your SR. I am mainly talking about outer world manifestation after the inner clearance. Do you agree that outer world would reflect your inner change?
Yes, it is! That's what I am against Enigma's visualization. Do you understand now?
I did not say I can control life's ups and down by controlling the feeling. I did not even talk about ups and down.
Visualization, as I have described and used it, it a focus of mind, no different from you visualizing making your breakfast so that you can eat it. No manifestation involved. I am talking about people doing as a consistent practice until it gets manifested. Don't you do something like that? |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 7, 2021 16:17:11 GMT
This thread mainly focuses on whether there should be an outer world manifestation. I am not talking arguing about whether there will be a Peace after your SR. I am mainly talking about outer world manifestation after the inner clearance. Do you agree that outer world would reflect your inner change? Feelings/emotions/sense about the circumstance are themselves appearances, thus part and parcel of the circumstance (I thought you agreed with that?)....thus, when arising feelings of intolerance towards a particular person fall away due to SR and now a sense of okayness ariseness in experience when you're around that previously intolerable person, your relationship with him has changed and we can say then that the outer world, (the circumstance) HAS changed, even though that person may still remain in your life. A changed relationship, feeling differently about someone whom you could not previously tolerate, is an outer world change, isn't it? Again, I have a problem with the way you divide feelings (inner) from appearing situation/condition (outer). When you feel differently towards a particular condition, the 'situation' as a whole, has changed. Yes, that's the one kind of change, it's possible logically but universe doesn't move this way. |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 7, 2021 16:25:45 GMT
No, I don't. What Enigma described with his visualization was not: "manipulating feelings so as to try to control the specifics of material manifestation". If Enigma says it's correct, If I say, it's wrong, did I understand you correctly? |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 7, 2021 16:27:11 GMT
Part & parcel of life's ups and downs are feelings themselves. In acceptance, dips in feeling are also accepted. There is no longer any need nor interest to try to boost a particular feeling to something considered more positive. I think you are talking to someone else, so let me leave this part. |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 8, 2021 5:12:24 GMT
Feelings/emotions/sense about the circumstance are themselves appearances, thus part and parcel of the circumstance (I thought you agreed with that?)....thus, when arising feelings of intolerance towards a particular person fall away due to SR and now a sense of okayness ariseness in experience when you're around that previously intolerable person, your relationship with him has changed and we can say then that the outer world, (the circumstance) HAS changed, even though that person may still remain in your life. A changed relationship, feeling differently about someone whom you could not previously tolerate, is an outer world change, isn't it? Again, I have a problem with the way you divide feelings (inner) from appearing situation/condition (outer). When you feel differently towards a particular condition, the 'situation' as a whole, has changed. Yes, that's the one kind of change, it's possible logically but universe doesn't move this way. You've never had a difficult relationship change, to become amicable? |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 8, 2021 5:14:21 GMT
No, I don't. What Enigma described with his visualization was not: "manipulating feelings so as to try to control the specifics of material manifestation". If Enigma says it's correct, If I say, it's wrong, did I understand you correctly? No. I meant what I said; Enigma has never described a process of "manipulating his feelings so as to try to control the specifics of manifestation."
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Post by Figgles on Jan 8, 2021 5:16:10 GMT
Part & parcel of life's ups and downs are feelings themselves. In acceptance, dips in feeling are also accepted. There is no longer any need nor interest to try to boost a particular feeling to something considered more positive. I think you are talking to someone else, so let me leave this part. No, I am very much talking to you. Trying to control feelings so what manifests in the future will be pleasing IS an attempt to control the ups and downs of life. |
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Post by Gopal on Jan 10, 2021 10:00:20 GMT
I think you are talking to someone else, so let me leave this part. No, I am very much talking to you. Trying to control feelings so what manifests in the future will be pleasing IS an attempt to control the ups and downs of life. Yes, I agree with you here. I did not say no! controlling the feeling to get the desire future is actually expressing the separate volitional person. That's what I am not supporting visualization. But the point is, If you visualize, you can create the desired result. But it's happening out of the illusion. So this future which we are creating wouldn't last, it would soon be collapsed and return to our old reality. |
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Post by Figgles on Jan 10, 2021 18:59:01 GMT
No, I am very much talking to you. Trying to control feelings so what manifests in the future will be pleasing IS an attempt to control the ups and downs of life. Yes, I agree with you here. I did not say no! controlling the feeling to get the desire future is actually expressing the separate volitional person. That's what I am not supporting visualization. But the point is, If you visualize, you can create the desired result. But it's happening out of the illusion. So this future which we are creating wouldn't last, it would soon be collapsed and return to our old reality. That's just the experience. All experience is empty. You are not actually 'creating the desired result.' The desired result is not actually caused/created/catalyzed by visualization. There is correlation between visualization and manifestation only....not causation/attraction.
The visualization is correlated with whatever result transpires, and not just the positive results. You've taken the experience of visualizing a desired outcome and then having that outcome manifest, to then declare that the visualization 'caused it.'
And when you talk about the desired manifest event 'not lasting' because it was created out of visualization (the process, of which you are denoting to be illusion) you are yourself, being bamboozled by the illusion of cause/effect within the story. Indeed, this is how you may experience things, but again, all experience is empty and devoid of Truth.
The thing about story content is that none of it 'lasts,' it's always in flux, always moving, morphing and changing. There is no particular condition that remains fixed.
Seeing through the SVP means that regardless of what's arising in experience, there is no mental overlay in play that paints that as 'intolerable.' That's what real freedom is; freedom from the SVP and the delusions/suffering that go along with that.
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Post by Figgles on Jan 10, 2021 19:06:12 GMT
Absent the SVP, the wonder/joy inherent in life becomes more about the fact that a world is appearing at all, that experience is arising period, than it is about a particular, specific experience arising.
That doesn't mean there is no longer intent towards particular outcomes....likes/dislikes relative to the story-line, DO continue, but "the need" for the story to conform with likes/dislikes, for an overarching sense of okayness to arise, is no longer in play. There's a deep willingness and acceptance to take life as it comes, regardless of content.
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