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Post by Esponja on Feb 13, 2021 0:33:58 GMT
Yes, I assume when the personal I is finally seen through, then who is it that controls. No different to l.o.a work. It’s within the dream. That helps me clarify it. I’ll keep doing what I can to follow the path of least resistance and control my inner world whilst still practising mindfulness and self-enquiry. Infinite Intelligence behind the dream creates the dream differently when you involve with your control. We are actually creating the entire dream. Dream changes when we see something clearly. Everytime we see something clearly, dream changes too. Yes I resonnate with that. |
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Post by Esponja on Feb 13, 2021 0:37:48 GMT
Rejecting the people will more of such actions. Just watch it, you will soon find yourself rejecting more of such people in your life.
Illusion of control has to be seen through. Control will soon attract lose of control and lose of control will attract control soon, this will go on in the rollercoaster until we the truth that we are not really controlling anything.
By the same token, (of there not actually being anyone TO control stuff) we are not really 'creating' anything either. Ok so from perspective of I, in dream, we appear to control. In reality we’re dreaming all of it. Quite cool to ponder isn’t it? So if ‘I’ choose to see how far I can manipulate the dream, that’s just what will happen, has already happened because I’m dreaming it anyway. So I really am limitless... ?!?! |
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Post by Esponja on Feb 13, 2021 0:45:45 GMT
It look like we don't have any control over external but we do have the control over internal but in truth or with careful observation, we can come to know we don't have the control even in our inner as well. Depends on how we look at it. The stoic notion is from the limited, personal, relative perspective.
Control is ultimately a misconception, as there is no inner, and there is no outer, noone to control and nothing to do the controlling. But, from the relative perspective, to deny control over our internal state is to deny responsibility. If your internal state is moved, there is a reason for it, and you only react unknowingly if you're unconscious of what that reason is as the reaction is happening.
That’s it. Again, loving Singer’s teachings. We don’t control the sun, moon, planets yet think we have control. The question is to ask the mind ‘why?’ It reacts a certain way to some things and not to others... then recognise the lunacy and let go. |
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Post by Figgles on Feb 13, 2021 7:17:08 GMT
By the same token, (of there not actually being anyone TO control stuff) we are not really 'creating' anything either. Ok so from perspective of I, in dream, we appear to control. In reality we’re dreaming all of it. Quite cool to ponder isn’t it? So if ‘I’ choose to see how far I can manipulate the dream, that’s just what will happen, has already happened because I’m dreaming it anyway. So I really am limitless ... ?!?! In reality, there is no 'dreamer'. The term 'dream' should be taken as a metaphor... a pointer to all appearance being empty, and not a direct comparison/equivalent to a nighttime dream.
The you that seems to manipulate the dream is a concept only...imagined...thus, but a facet of the dream and not prior to or causal to it...which means, that nothing is actually being manipulated.
The pointer of "Limitless" is not a quality or property that can be ascribed to someone/something, but rather a reference to absence.
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Post by Gopal on Feb 13, 2021 12:53:16 GMT
By the same token, (of there not actually being anyone TO control stuff) we are not really 'creating' anything either. Ok so from perspective of I, in dream, we appear to control. In reality we’re dreaming all of it. You worded so beautifully! Yes, we are dreaming everything and this includes our controlling act too. But when we know this truth, we start to dream differently in which we don't create the dream of controlling.
Once again you worded beautifully. yes. Exactly!
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Post by Gopal on Feb 13, 2021 12:55:56 GMT
Creation doesn't implies the beginning, In the eternal now, appearances are keep appearing one after the other. If it arising out of nothing, still I would like to assign a creator who is creating without his will. He has the power to turn his creation with his clarity. Creation is not a product of personified will. Creation only seems to have anything to do with will from the limited, relative, personal perspective. Even without the beginning, appearances appearing is a process. The dream metaphor is to hint to the dreamer that they've taken the process and the things moving and disappearing as part of that process for reality, when, in fact, what you really are is what all that appears to, transcendent of time altogether. You are only a dreamer when you mistake yourself for what you are not.
The question of the nature of the dreamer is self-inquiry, and all of this pointing and dialog about the pointing is no substitute for the open, still attention that is the most auspicious state of dancing on the edge of the existential precipice.  I am not saying I personally create things in my world. I am dreaming everything together which includes everything that happens here. |
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Post by Gopal on Feb 13, 2021 12:57:55 GMT
By the same token, (of there not actually being anyone TO control stuff) we are not really 'creating' anything either. Quite cool to ponder isn’t it? So if ‘I’ choose to see how far I can manipulate the dream, that’s just what will happen, has already happened because I’m dreaming it anyway. So I really am limitless... ?!?! I just love the way you have worded it. That's exactly what I have been saying. |
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Post by muttley on Feb 13, 2021 13:05:30 GMT
By the same token, (of there not actually being anyone TO control stuff) we are not really 'creating' anything either. Ok so from perspective of I, in dream, we appear to control. In reality we’re dreaming all of it. Quite cool to ponder isn’t it? So if ‘I’ choose to see how far I can manipulate the dream, that’s just what will happen, has already happened because I’m dreaming it anyway. So I really am limitless... ?!?! Yes, you are limitless, but the manipulator of the dream, is limited. |
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Post by muttley on Feb 13, 2021 13:07:31 GMT
Depends on how we look at it. The stoic notion is from the limited, personal, relative perspective.
Control is ultimately a misconception, as there is no inner, and there is no outer, noone to control and nothing to do the controlling. But, from the relative perspective, to deny control over our internal state is to deny responsibility. If your internal state is moved, there is a reason for it, and you only react unknowingly if you're unconscious of what that reason is as the reaction is happening.
That’s it. Again, loving Singer’s teachings. We don’t control the sun, moon, planets yet think we have control. The question is to ask the mind ‘why?’ It reacts a certain way to some things and not to others... then recognise the lunacy and let go. At the end of the rainbow is the answer to the question, "what recognizes the Lunacy?".  It might seem annoying that these patterns all lead back to the same repetitive point, but it's only the dreamer that ever gets annoyed.  |
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Post by Gopal on Feb 13, 2021 13:14:12 GMT
Ok so from perspective of I, in dream, we appear to control. In reality we’re dreaming all of it. Quite cool to ponder isn’t it? So if ‘I’ choose to see how far I can manipulate the dream, that’s just what will happen, has already happened because I’m dreaming it anyway. So I really am limitless... ?!?! Yes, you are limitless, but the manipulator of the dream, is limited.
The who dreams actually creates the dream of manipulation out of delusion, once he sees through this illusion, he stops creating such a dream.
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Post by muttley on Feb 13, 2021 13:16:17 GMT
Creation is not a product of personified will. Creation only seems to have anything to do with will from the limited, relative, personal perspective. Even without the beginning, appearances appearing is a process. The dream metaphor is to hint to the dreamer that they've taken the process and the things moving and disappearing as part of that process for reality, when, in fact, what you really are is what all that appears to, transcendent of time altogether. You are only a dreamer when you mistake yourself for what you are not.
The question of the nature of the dreamer is self-inquiry, and all of this pointing and dialog about the pointing is no substitute for the open, still attention that is the most auspicious state of dancing on the edge of the existential precipice. I am not saying I personally create things in my world. I am dreaming everything together which includes everything that happens here. If you say so. |
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Post by muttley on Feb 13, 2021 13:17:15 GMT
Yes, you are limitless, but the manipulator of the dream, is limited.
The who dreams actually creates the dream of manipulation out of delusion, once he sees through this illusion, he stops creating such a dream.
Which means that "God fell into, and then came out of, his dream". |
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Post by Figgles on Feb 13, 2021 18:45:25 GMT
Because it feels like the truth. There is still suffering on this path, continuously having to meditate or align or control within. I enjoy it but I don’t believe that’s it. I can see conceptually that there is no personal I and perhaps I’ve had enough moments of clarity. We don't have to consider there is no personal I. We are learning how dream is getting created when we have certain illusion. When we believe in control, it is creating the situation where we have to experience the control.The belief in control means there's a belief in an entity/SVP who controls.
The belief in control is not itself a 'creative causal/catalyst' to the unfolding dream in the way you suggest. Rather, the sense of being in the driver's seat, of being a someone/something who controls stuff = an experience of control. There is no 'causation.'
You keep losing sight of 'time is an illusion.' You are caught up in the seemingly sequential movement of appearance and that's what has you insisting that a belief in control "creates/causes" a sequential movement to an experience of having & needing to utilize control. The belief in control really is the belief in an SVP....a belief in separation....a belief in causation within the dream.
In reality, all there is is NOW...presence....what lies foundational and what is appearing immediately. Truth/Reality = What is known for absolute certain, here, now.
Your theories about how belief creates a future manifestation hinges upon an imagined future moment.
Truth is what is clearly evident here...now....absent imagination.
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Post by Figgles on Feb 13, 2021 19:29:33 GMT
Depends on how we look at it. The stoic notion is from the limited, personal, relative perspective.
Control is ultimately a misconception, as there is no inner, and there is no outer, noone to control and nothing to do the controlling. But, from the relative perspective, to deny control over our internal state is to deny responsibility. If your internal state is moved, there is a reason for it, and you only react unknowingly if you're unconscious of what that reason is as the reaction is happening.
That’s it. Again, loving Singer’s teachings. We don’t control the sun, moon, planets yet think we have control. The question is to ask the mind ‘why?’ It reacts a certain way to some things and not to others... then recognise the lunacy and let go. This guy, eh?
What he's advocating there is using an idea, a concept, to replace another idea that is less 'feel good.' Freedom is not the replacement of one idea with another, it's the seeing of ALL ideas as inherently empty...appearance only....dependently arising upon that which abides.
Again, while I don't take issue with practices or ideas that seemingly help mitigate suffering, if actual freedom from suffering is to be, the 'mind games' inherent in what's described above, must be seen for what they are.
The idea that our hearts beat, food digests and cells divide, all without our intervention...that planets stay in orbit, the entire universe unfolds on its own, may seem transcendent of consensus trance ideas, but it's still one borne of the inherent belief in an objective world....a world of appearances that is somehow known for certain to exist beyond the immediate appearance of such.
It must be seen that a world beyond what is appearing presently, is merely assumed. So long as a world 'beyond this moment' is taken to be something more than just an assumption, a delusion is in play.
Freedom hinges upon the seeing through an objectively existent world, seeing through the idea of appearances that are erroneously known for certain to still be appearing, to have appeared, outside of/beyond this present moment of seeing/knowing... freedom requires a realization/seeing through that the entirety of the realm of 'perceivables,' (which includes all mind content....senses, ideas, memories, learned knowledge about the world, imaginings, appearances, feelings, emotions...) as empty, appearance only.
His is the same view that ZD espouses, that posits a billion years of pasty history as the incontrovertible reality that preceded, led to, this moment of experience. Freedom from the dream means seeing that the past/future is actually nothing more than an idea that is arising in the present moment.
Singer posits the idea of trying to allow life to unfold around you without struggling against it. The problem is that without the realization that sees through the SVP, an imagined 'something that struggles' is still very much in play and it's that imagined entity that is the crux of all struggle.
The very entity he is designating as being able to 'try to stop struggling,' = the struggle. What he's unknowingly suggesting is that the imagined entity can take charge to control and subvert the imagined entity. The only thing that subdues the one who struggles, is a realization that sees through the 'struggler.'
For struggling through life to truly cease, the one who thinks he has control over struggle, must go.
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Post by Figgles on Feb 13, 2021 19:39:42 GMT
What I see Singer and so many other spiritual teachers selling (Sifting on ST comes to mind here too) is a means for the SVP to 'cause SR,' through adopting the ideas of an SR informed mind. It's essentially putting the cart before the horse in hopes that that will 'trigger' SR.
The problem with that is that the informing of mind that happens post SR...the ideas/concepts that arise/appear when the SVP is absent, are absent the overlay of separation, the SVP, which is what elevates those concepts to 'pointers.'
The seeker's idea of "unlimited....infinite....no separation...no SVP," are ideas only, that as ideas/concepts, are being mistaken for the Truth.
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It might seem annoying that these patterns all lead back to the same repetitive point, but it's only the dreamer that ever gets annoyed. 