|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 12, 2021 4:06:54 GMT
This is an ancient cultural wisdom, and as far as I can tell it's source is the Greek stoics: first understand that you ultimately have exactly zero actual total control over any externality, and it's only ever your internal state that you can influence, regulate, and make actual, hard choices about free of any influence other than your own. People wise to this benefit from the wisdom in many ways, especially if they act on the advice to still do their best to make good choices about externalities.
But beyond that benefit, isn't this an existential question: "what is it, that I control"? Seems to me it's a question that philosopher's, artists and theologians have pursued over thousands of years, and still pursue to this day. Isn't this the nature of existential questions, that they are, ultimately, unanswerable?
Now, I'd opine that the material perspective on this question, the practical, day-to-day implication of how you answer it, is very much related to your ongoing experience of life. Personally, I'd say there are many many more people out there who have accomplished various feats and attained various states who are far more qualified than myself to comment in this regard. 
But there is an alternative perspective on the question to the practical perspective. I'd say this: most people (like by a wiiide margin) take for granted an error at the root of the question's premise. The question is ultimately related to self-inquiry. It translates directly into self-inquiry. Self-inquiry, unlike the philosophical question, or even, really, the practical version of the question, does have an ultimate answer, but it's one that can't be found with either the head, or the heart, that is, with reason, or emotion.
Yes, I assume when the personal I is finally seen through, then who is it that controls. No different to l.o.a work. It’s within the dream. That helps me clarify it. I’ll keep doing what I can to follow the path of least resistance and control my inner world whilst still practising mindfulness and self-enquiry. Infinite Intelligence behind the dream creates the dream differently when you involve with your control. We are actually creating the entire dream. Dream changes when we see something clearly. Everytime we see something clearly, dream changes too. |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 12, 2021 4:08:21 GMT
Yes, I assume when the personal I is finally seen through, then who is it that controls. No different to l.o.a work. It’s within the dream. That helps me clarify it. I’ll keep doing what I can to follow the path of least resistance and control my inner world whilst still practising mindfulness and self-enquiry. Can't speak to LOA practices myself, but in terms of seeking the truth, there can come a point with that seeking of no turning back, where your hair is on fire and you're in the tiger's mouth. This marks a limit of the dream/dreamer metaphor. During such a time one has one foot in the dream and the other on an existential banana peel. Whenever your include yourself in a description or a reflection, you entangle all of eternity, in limitlessness, and the LOA is certainly about you. Everything that appears to you is dream, but what you really are, isn't a dreamer. What you are is actually dreaming. You are creating the dream. |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 12, 2021 4:09:38 GMT
Exactly.
If the LOA & Dispenza teachings are working & you are feeling mostly whole/complete, do you have a sense of why there is still the interest to pursue what seems to be a path to awakening?
I honestly get the sense you are teetering on the edge right now....ripe fruit....
Because it feels like the truth. There is still suffering on this path, continuously having to meditate or align or control within. I enjoy it but I don’t believe that’s it. I can see conceptually that there is no personal I and perhaps I’ve had enough moments of clarity. We don't have to consider there is no personal I. We are learning how dream is getting created when we have certain illusion. When we believe in control, it is creating the situation where we have to experience the control. |
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Feb 12, 2021 4:13:37 GMT
Yes, I think I am doing that naturally. Lately, I find myself avoiding people who I know are really of opposing opinions if I’m in a frustrated or agitated state myself. That is helpful actually because I was struggling to see that control is an illusion, I think we always have the power to choose how we respond but actually sometimes we don’t. Rejecting the people will more of such actions. Just watch it, you will soon find yourself rejecting more of such people in your life.
Illusion of control has to be seen through. Control will soon attract lose of control and lose of control will attract control soon, this will go on in the rollercoaster until we the truth that we are not really controlling anything.
By the same token, (of there not actually being anyone TO control stuff) we are not really 'creating' anything either. |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 12, 2021 4:22:44 GMT
Rejecting the people will more of such actions. Just watch it, you will soon find yourself rejecting more of such people in your life.
Illusion of control has to be seen through. Control will soon attract lose of control and lose of control will attract control soon, this will go on in the rollercoaster until we the truth that we are not really controlling anything.
By the same token, (of there not actually being anyone TO control stuff) we are not really 'creating' anything either. You haven't seen the awesome creator behind this reality yet ! The day when you meet him, you will be amazed. |
|
|
|
Post by muttley on Feb 12, 2021 13:48:57 GMT
Exactly.
If the LOA & Dispenza teachings are working & you are feeling mostly whole/complete, do you have a sense of why there is still the interest to pursue what seems to be a path to awakening?
I honestly get the sense you are teetering on the edge right now....ripe fruit....
Because it feels like the truth. There is still suffering on this path, continuously having to meditate or align or control within. I enjoy it but I don’t believe that’s it. I can see conceptually that there is no personal I and perhaps I’ve had enough moments of clarity. It can be an interesting observation ... the difference between moments that seem clear, and otherwise.  It's another form of the existential question. |
|
|
|
Post by muttley on Feb 12, 2021 13:54:51 GMT
This is an ancient cultural wisdom, and as far as I can tell it's source is the Greek stoics: first understand that you ultimately have exactly zero actual total control over any externality, and it's only ever your internal state that you can influence, regulate, and make actual, hard choices about free of any influence other than your own. People wise to this benefit from the wisdom in many ways, especially if they act on the advice to still do their best to make good choices about externalities.
But beyond that benefit, isn't this an existential question: "what is it, that I control"? Seems to me it's a question that philosopher's, artists and theologians have pursued over thousands of years, and still pursue to this day. Isn't this the nature of existential questions, that they are, ultimately, unanswerable?
Now, I'd opine that the material perspective on this question, the practical, day-to-day implication of how you answer it, is very much related to your ongoing experience of life. Personally, I'd say there are many many more people out there who have accomplished various feats and attained various states who are far more qualified than myself to comment in this regard.
But there is an alternative perspective on the question to the practical perspective. I'd say this: most people (like by a wiiide margin) take for granted an error at the root of the question's premise. The question is ultimately related to self-inquiry. It translates directly into self-inquiry. Self-inquiry, unlike the philosophical question, or even, really, the practical version of the question, does have an ultimate answer, but it's one that can't be found with either the head, or the heart, that is, with reason, or emotion.
It look like we don't have any control over external but we do have the control over internal but in truth or with careful observation, we can come to know we don't have the control even in our inner as well. Depends on how we look at it. The stoic notion is from the limited, personal, relative perspective.
Control is ultimately a misconception, as there is no inner, and there is no outer, noone to control and nothing to do the controlling. But, from the relative perspective, to deny control over our internal state is to deny responsibility. If your internal state is moved, there is a reason for it, and you only react unknowingly if you're unconscious of what that reason is as the reaction is happening.
|
|
|
|
Post by muttley on Feb 12, 2021 13:59:24 GMT
Rejecting the people will more of such actions. Just watch it, you will soon find yourself rejecting more of such people in your life.
Illusion of control has to be seen through. Control will soon attract lose of control and lose of control will attract control soon, this will go on in the rollercoaster until we the truth that we are not really controlling anything.
By the same token, (of there not actually being anyone TO control stuff) we are not really 'creating' anything either. You Goddless commie atheist!  |
|
|
|
Post by muttley on Feb 12, 2021 14:07:07 GMT
Can't speak to LOA practices myself, but in terms of seeking the truth, there can come a point with that seeking of no turning back, where your hair is on fire and you're in the tiger's mouth. This marks a limit of the dream/dreamer metaphor. During such a time one has one foot in the dream and the other on an existential banana peel. Whenever your include yourself in a description or a reflection, you entangle all of eternity, in limitlessness, and the LOA is certainly about you. Everything that appears to you is dream, but what you really are, isn't a dreamer. What you are is actually dreaming. You are creating the dream. In one sense that's true, but the "you" that is "creating" isn't personal, and isn't conceivable, and even the very notion of "creation" is ultimately flawed, as it implies a beginning. But, you see, you have no beginning, nor any end, as you are eternal - without any limit, whatsoever. |
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Feb 12, 2021 17:21:46 GMT
By the same token, (of there not actually being anyone TO control stuff) we are not really 'creating' anything either. You haven't seen the awesome creator behind this reality yet ! The day when you meet him, you will be amazed. What's far more amazing and awe-inspiring is that it's all happening, absent a someone/something that is behind it. Your view of a personal creator is shared by the majority of 'spiritual' people...there is nothing transcendent about it. Whereas seeing there is nothing/no-one doing, causing or catalyzing any of it, requires a realization/seeing through. |
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Feb 12, 2021 17:24:45 GMT
What you are is actually dreaming. You are creating the dream. In one sense that's true, but the "you" that is "creating" isn't personal, and isn't conceivable, and even the very notion of "creation" is ultimately flawed, as it implies a beginning. But, you see, you have no beginning, nor any end, as you are eternal - without any limit, whatsoever. Bingo with cherry.
(You Commie, atheist, non-dually freak ) |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 12, 2021 22:40:30 GMT
It look like we don't have any control over external but we do have the control over internal but in truth or with careful observation, we can come to know we don't have the control even in our inner as well. Depends on how we look at it. The stoic notion is from the limited, personal, relative perspective.
Control is ultimately a misconception, as there is no inner, and there is no outer, noone to control and nothing to do the controlling. But, from the relative perspective, to deny control over our internal state is to deny responsibility. If your internal state is moved, there is a reason for it, and you only react unknowingly if you're unconscious of what that reason is as the reaction is happening.
I agree with you. |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 12, 2021 22:42:10 GMT
What you are is actually dreaming. You are creating the dream. In one sense that's true, but the "you" that is "creating" isn't personal, and isn't conceivable, and even the very notion of "creation" is ultimately flawed, as it implies a beginning. But, you see, you have no beginning, nor any end, as you are eternal - without any limit, whatsoever. Creation doesn't implies the beginning, In the eternal now, appearances are keep appearing one after the other. If it arising out of nothing, still I would like to assign a creator who is creating without his will. He has the power to turn his creation with his clarity. |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 12, 2021 22:45:24 GMT
You haven't seen the awesome creator behind this reality yet ! The day when you meet him, you will be amazed. What's far more amazing and awe-inspiring is that it's all happening, absent a someone/something that is behind it. Your view of a personal creator is shared by the majority of 'spiritual' people...there is nothing transcendent about it. Whereas seeing there is nothing/no-one doing, causing or catalyzing any of it, requires a realization/seeing through. Even if it is arising out of nothing, still there is a creator who is nothingness. He is responding to the creation, he is turning his creation according to the clarity. Isn't the reason 'God has fallen into the dream' is suggested? |
|
|
|
Post by muttley on Feb 12, 2021 23:55:35 GMT
In one sense that's true, but the "you" that is "creating" isn't personal, and isn't conceivable, and even the very notion of "creation" is ultimately flawed, as it implies a beginning. But, you see, you have no beginning, nor any end, as you are eternal - without any limit, whatsoever. Creation doesn't implies the beginning, In the eternal now, appearances are keep appearing one after the other. If it arising out of nothing, still I would like to assign a creator who is creating without his will. He has the power to turn his creation with his clarity. Creation is not a product of personified will. Creation only seems to have anything to do with will from the limited, relative, personal perspective. Even without the beginning, appearances appearing is a process. The dream metaphor is to hint to the dreamer that they've taken the process and the things moving and disappearing as part of that process for reality, when, in fact, what you really are is what all that appears to, transcendent of time altogether. You are only a dreamer when you mistake yourself for what you are not.
The question of the nature of the dreamer is self-inquiry, and all of this pointing and dialog about the pointing is no substitute for the open, still attention that is the most auspicious state of dancing on the edge of the existential precipice. |
|
It's another form of the existential question.