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Post by Gopal on Feb 4, 2021 16:31:49 GMT
The moment you consider the possibility of an external reality, you are postulating a hypothesis, and if that hypothesis is valid, it can never be proven true.
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Post by muttley on Feb 4, 2021 16:43:06 GMT
The moment you consider the possibility of an external reality, you are postulating a hypothesis, and if that hypothesis is valid, it can never be proven true. Here's the thing .. there is no conception of "reality" that is valid, because "reality" transcends the subject/object split, and all conception is premised on that split. "Reality", is, ultimately, ineffable.
That said, there are statements that you can only deny with absurdity. Like say .. "you are reading this sentence".  Now, I'm not sayin' that this perception is "real", in the sense of a conceptual "reality", but yet, I find the absurdity of denying it to be ... salient.  |
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Post by Gopal on Feb 4, 2021 16:59:03 GMT
The moment you consider the possibility of an external reality, you are postulating a hypothesis, and if that hypothesis is valid, it can never be proven true. Here's the thing .. there is no conception of "reality" that is valid, because "reality" transcends the subject/object split, and all conception is premised on that split. "Reality", is, ultimately, ineffable.
That said, there are statements that you can only deny with absurdity. Like say .. "you are reading this sentence". Now, I'm not sayin' that this perception is "real", in the sense of a conceptual "reality", but yet, I find the absurdity of denying it to be ... salient. I am looking at the world and I feel like something out there and I receive my perception from out there. And then I am looking at my nightly dream and when I wake up and I understand that I mistook the dream for happening and then it immediately paves the way to question my reality as to am I still dreaming? Then I look at my perception and coming to the conclusion that perception is actually happening in my awareness, perception can't be separated from my awareness. |
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Post by muttley on Feb 4, 2021 17:02:39 GMT
Here's the thing .. there is no conception of "reality" that is valid, because "reality" transcends the subject/object split, and all conception is premised on that split. "Reality", is, ultimately, ineffable.
That said, there are statements that you can only deny with absurdity. Like say .. "you are reading this sentence". Now, I'm not sayin' that this perception is "real", in the sense of a conceptual "reality", but yet, I find the absurdity of denying it to be ... salient. I am looking at the world and I feel like something out there and I receive my perception from out there. And then I am looking at my nightly dream and when I wake up and I understand that I mistook the dream for happening and then it immediately paving the way for me to question my reality as to whether still I am dreaming? Then I look at my perception and coming to the conclusion that perception is actually happening in my awareness, perception can't be separated from my awareness. Yes, this is all true. But is this awareness .. really, yours? There is this unique perspective, which it is also absurd to deny, but what is it that really exists? Do you, as a separate volitional person, really exist, in and of your own right? |
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Post by Gopal on Feb 4, 2021 17:07:51 GMT
I am looking at the world and I feel like something out there and I receive my perception from out there. And then I am looking at my nightly dream and when I wake up and I understand that I mistook the dream for happening and then it immediately paving the way for me to question my reality as to whether still I am dreaming? Then I look at my perception and coming to the conclusion that perception is actually happening in my awareness, perception can't be separated from my awareness. Yes, this is all true. But is this awareness .. really, yours? There is this unique perspective, which it is also absurd to deny, but what is it that really exists? Do you, as a separate volitional person, really exist, in and of your own right? I name this 'I' to be awareness. I am awareness because I am aware of what's happening. To answer the question whether there is a separate person exist, I see myself as the perceiver of this ongoing movie, this movie includes my own body or more accurately, I am outside this movie and watching it, now you tell me whether I am believing myself to be a separate volitional person? |
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Post by muttley on Feb 4, 2021 17:13:36 GMT
Yes, this is all true. But is this awareness .. really, yours? There is this unique perspective, which it is also absurd to deny, but what is it that really exists? Do you, as a separate volitional person, really exist, in and of your own right? I name this 'I' to be awareness. I am awareness because I am aware of what's happening. To answer the question whether there is a separate person exist, I see myself as the perceiver of this ongoing movie, this movie includes my own body or more accurately, I am outside this movie and watching it, now you tell me whether I am believing myself to be a separate volitional person? That's not for me to say.  But it seems to me that you're describing witnessing. Witnessing has potential, but it also suggests an underlying division. Only you can say what the distinction between witness/witnessed means to you, and not in any conceptual terms, but what it feels like, as it's happening. |
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Post by Gopal on Feb 4, 2021 17:15:55 GMT
I name this 'I' to be awareness. I am awareness because I am aware of what's happening. To answer the question whether there is a separate person exist, I see myself as the perceiver of this ongoing movie, this movie includes my own body or more accurately, I am outside this movie and watching it, now you tell me whether I am believing myself to be a separate volitional person? Witnessing has potential, but it also suggests an underlying division. Only you can say what the distinction between witness/witnessed means to you, and not in any conceptual terms, but what it feels like, as it's happening. Yes, exactly, that how I can locate myself to be! A WITNESS! But I don't understand why witness suggest an underlying division? how come? |
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Post by muttley on Feb 4, 2021 17:36:39 GMT
That's not for me to say. But it seems to me that you're describing witnessing. Witnessing has potential, but it also suggests an underlying division. Only you can say what the distinction between witness/witnessed means to you, and not in any conceptual terms, but what it feels like, as it's happening. Yes, exactly, that how I can locate myself to be! A WITNESS! But I don't understand why witness suggest an underlying division? how come? Because you describe yourself as being outside of a movie, watching it. |
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Post by Andrew on Feb 4, 2021 19:32:52 GMT
That's not for me to say. But it seems to me that you're describing witnessing. Witnessing has potential, but it also suggests an underlying division. Only you can say what the distinction between witness/witnessed means to you, and not in any conceptual terms, but what it feels like, as it's happening. Yes, exactly, that how I can locate myself to be! A WITNESS! But I don't understand why witness suggest an underlying division? how come? A central aspect of the mind is that it creates 'pairs'. Light and dark, inside and outside etc. Witness and witnessed is a pair. Reality itself (which includes the pairing mind...but also goes beyond the pairing mind).....cannot be 'paired' with anything. The concept of 'Reality' itself has a pair, as all concepts do.... 'Reality/Not-Reality', but that's why the idea of a 'pointer' is applied. The pointer says, 'I know it seems like there is pair because I am using a concept, but this is deceptive...what I am pointing to, has no pair'. |
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Post by Andrew on Feb 4, 2021 19:33:12 GMT
wow. It's actually kinda nice to talk about non-duality lol.
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Post by Figgles on Feb 4, 2021 22:46:32 GMT
wow. It's actually kinda nice to talk about non-duality lol.  I hear ya! (Some truly excellent posts and points you made on "the other stuff" over on ST, by the way). |
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Post by muttley on Feb 5, 2021 8:49:58 GMT
wow. It's actually kinda nice to talk about non-duality lol.  |
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Post by Gopal on Feb 5, 2021 15:56:15 GMT
Yes, exactly, that how I can locate myself to be! A WITNESS! But I don't understand why witness suggest an underlying division? how come? Because you describe yourself as being outside of a movie, watching it. Yes, but my question was how come me locating myself to be a witness creates the division? |
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Post by Gopal on Feb 5, 2021 15:59:55 GMT
Yes, exactly, that how I can locate myself to be! A WITNESS! But I don't understand why witness suggest an underlying division? how come? A central aspect of the mind is that it creates 'pairs'. Light and dark, inside and outside etc. Witness and witnessed is a pair. Reality itself (which includes the pairing mind...but also goes beyond the pairing mind).....cannot be 'paired' with anything. The concept of 'Reality' itself has a pair, as all concepts do.... 'Reality/Not-Reality', but that's why the idea of a 'pointer' is applied. The pointer says, 'I know it seems like there is pair because I am using a concept, but this is deceptive...what I am pointing to, has no pair'. I can derive the conclusion from what I know. I know myself to be a perceiver of ongoing story. You too and everybody else in the world. In the beginning as soon as you come to the world, you start to interact the world as if something is outside of ourselves but carefully looking at our perception says that everything is happening in our consciousness. If Consciousness is not receiving the perception from outside, then it's creating while it's perceiving. There is no beyond consciousness, because everything is happening to this "YOU", so YOU is the base. The question whether this YOU receives the perception or creates the perception while it perceives. |
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Post by Gopal on Feb 5, 2021 16:14:56 GMT
wow. It's actually kinda nice to talk about non-duality lol. Yeah! I am missing Satch here! |
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But it seems to me that you're describing witnessing. Witnessing has potential, but it also suggests an underlying division. Only you can say what the distinction between witness/witnessed means to you, and not in any conceptual terms, but what it feels like, as it's happening.
I hear ya! (Some truly excellent posts and points you made on "the other stuff" over on ST, by the way).