|
|
Post by Figgles on Feb 14, 2021 22:53:38 GMT
Creation is not a product of personified will. Creation only seems to have anything to do with will from the limited, relative, personal perspective. Even without the beginning, appearances appearing is a process. The dream metaphor is to hint to the dreamer that they've taken the process and the things moving and disappearing as part of that process for reality, when, in fact, what you really are is what all that appears to, transcendent of time altogether. You are only a dreamer when you mistake yourself for what you are not.
The question of the nature of the dreamer is self-inquiry, and all of this pointing and dialog about the pointing is no substitute for the open, still attention that is the most auspicious state of dancing on the edge of the existential precipice.  I am not saying I personally create things in my world. I am dreaming everything together which includes everything that happens here. When you ascribe 'dreaming' to 'I am,' you conceptualize awareness as a something that dreams. That something that seems to be dreaming, is itself a facet of the dream.
I think it's time in this convo to change the pointer term, being used to describe the realm of appearance following SR. "Dream" is being taken by the seeking mind as something more than a metaphorical pointer...and that's what's happening with your idea "we are/I am dreaming all of it."
No-thing is actually dreaming. The seeking mind/SVP keeps trying to keep itself in the picture, while simultaneously trying to see 'beyond' itself. The only thing that will do is realization/seeing through of the SVP.
Do you feel you have seen through the SVP....are you speaking from SR?
|
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Feb 14, 2021 22:56:06 GMT
Yes, you are limitless, but the manipulator of the dream, is limited.
The who dreams actually creates the dream of manipulation out of delusion, once he sees through this illusion, he stops creating such a dream.
Your seeing of a ' who/he' that stops and starts creating certain stuff and that sees through illusions, is itself, an illusion. |
|
|
|
Post by Esponja on Feb 14, 2021 22:57:15 GMT
Ok have got it, conceptually at least. There’s only now and what is. The rest of it is ideas given to me. I practise mindfulness so I honestly do get this and that we use labels to describe.. but then Why does the belief in svp remain despite this knowing? We speak of identity in these abstract terms, such as belief, but it's also far more visceral and immediate than all that, involving our physical senses as they happen, and not just our conceptual sense of self. Our body/minds can be thought of as machines that work a certain way and according to certain rules and patterns. The false sense of self didn't happen overnight - at least, it doesn't appear to have happened that way, anyways. That's where some appreciation for the intricacy of how appearances appear can help put this issue into perspective, and I think Singer's notions can be relevant and helpful in that regard.
But, any such help will only be a potential sign post, whereas the existential truth is even far more immediate that the existential lie. So, in that existential truth, there is no path, no gradual change that is necessary.
It seems the deep programming needs to fall apart somehow. The mind feels confused by all of this now. I’ve been here several times then get frustrated and ditch ‘trying’ for a while and work with what I’ve got -subconscious reprogramming, mindfulness, meditation, breath work- it makes this reality seem easier but I know that’s not it. |
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Feb 14, 2021 23:03:36 GMT
In reality, there is no 'dreamer'. The term 'dream' should be taken as a metaphor... a pointer to all appearance being empty, and not a direct comparison/equivalent to a nighttime dream.
The you that seems to manipulate the dream is a concept only...imagined...thus, but a facet of the dream and not prior to or causal to it...which means, that nothing is actually being manipulated.
The pointer of "Limitless" is not a quality or property that can be ascribed to someone/something, but rather a reference to absence.
Mmmmm wow! I need to swear.. It’s all imagined? Something, someone still wants to manipulate ‘nothing’ 😂 I wouldn't say it's ALL imagined. Whatever is appearing now, is appearing. Appearances per se are not imagined. But the SVP is not actually appearing....it's erroneously assumed due to a mistake of mind.
The urge to manipulate/control isn't imagined if/when such is appearing, but the entity that 'seems to be' behind it and controlling or allowing that urge is.
|
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Feb 14, 2021 23:07:44 GMT
Mmmmm wow! I need to swear.. It’s all imagined? Something, someone still wants to manipulate ‘nothing’ 😂 Which means I’m all of it but nothing and none of it. So do you exist?! Within my ‘dream’ you do but do you?!That's the million dollar question at the crux of the "I do know/I don't know" argument that went on for several years and still goes on. 
Bottom line, if existence is defined as; That which can be known for certain to be fundamentally abiding, here and now, and it's been clearly seen that nothing that appears fits that bill, then the question itself is seen to be misconceived.
& There is a point whereby the 'my' bit, ownership idea, preceding the appearing dream bit, falls away and there is just "the" dream....the One, only, singular appearing dream/story/movie/play (pick your term) that can be/is known for certain to be arising, appearing, here and now.
|
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Feb 14, 2021 23:37:57 GMT
This guy, eh?
What he's advocating there is using an idea, a concept, to replace another idea that is less 'feel good.' Freedom is not the replacement of one idea with another, it's the seeing of ALL ideas as inherently empty...appearance only....dependently arising upon that which abides.
Again, while I don't take issue with practices or ideas that seemingly help mitigate suffering, if actual freedom from suffering is to be, the 'mind games' inherent in what's described above, must be seen for what they are.
The idea that our hearts beat, food digests and cells divide, all without our intervention...that planets stay in orbit, the entire universe unfolds on its own, may seem transcendent of consensus trance ideas, but it's still one borne of the inherent belief in an objective world....a world of appearances that is somehow known for certain to exist beyond the immediate appearance of such.
It must be seen that a world beyond what is appearing presently, is merely assumed. So long as a world 'beyond this moment' is taken to be something more than just an assumption, a delusion is in play.
Freedom hinges upon the seeing through an objectively existent world, seeing through the idea of appearances that are erroneously known for certain to still be appearing, to have appeared, outside of/beyond this present moment of seeing/knowing... freedom requires a realization/seeing through that the entirety of the realm of 'perceivables,' (which includes all mind content....senses, ideas, memories, learned knowledge about the world, imaginings, appearances, feelings, emotions...) as empty, appearance only.
His is the same view that ZD espouses, that posits a billion years of pasty history as the incontrovertible reality that preceded, led to, this moment of experience. Freedom from the dream means seeing that the past/future is actually nothing more than an idea that is arising in the present moment.
Singer posits the idea of trying to allow life to unfold around you without struggling against it. The problem is that without the realization that sees through the SVP, an imagined 'something that struggles' is still very much in play and it's that imagined entity that is the crux of all struggle.
The very entity he is designating as being able to 'try to stop struggling,' = the struggle. What he's unknowingly suggesting is that the imagined entity can take charge to control and subvert the imagined entity. The only thing that subdues the one who struggles, is a realization that sees through the 'struggler.'
For struggling through life to truly cease, the one who thinks he has control over struggle, must go.
Ok have got it, conceptually at least. There’s only now and what is. The rest of it is ideas given to me. I practise mindfulness so I honestly do get this and that we use labels to describe.. but then Why does the belief in svp remain despite this knowing? It's a good question.
The SVP...separation in general, is more than just a belief; It's a falsely adopted vantage point...an erroneously assumed position of seeing...a filter that obscures clear seeing/interpreting of what's going on and that thus, reinforces itself....a false identification with body/mind/ideas/thoughts/senses.
For the SVP to be fully seen through, requires a realization...a seeing of what is false....not actually so....a monumental shift in vantage point from a something within the dream, to beyond....from the sense of being a something that is seeing from/through physical eyes of a body/mind TO beyond.
The overriding, fundamental position of seeing post SR, isn't really a position at all....it's unfixed....non-centralized....awareness itself aware-ing....seeing, doing, knowing, creating, perceiving, is no longer tied to any-thing, any-one. It's all just happening. One singular movie appearing on the unchanging back-ground/screen that remains unchanging.
That doesn't mean that there's no longer an 'experience' of seeing through eyes of a physical body, no longer bodily senses, no longer an experience of physicality, but it does mean that the experience of such is no longer mistaken for evidence of an existent entity. The 'locus' of seeing shifts from seemingly being tied to a 'me/body'character,' to beyond, where the body/character is now clearly seen to be an appearance only.
|
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Feb 14, 2021 23:42:11 GMT
Ok have got it, conceptually at least. There’s only now and what is. The rest of it is ideas given to me. I practise mindfulness so I honestly do get this and that we use labels to describe.. but then Why does the belief in svp remain despite this knowing? We speak of identity in these abstract terms, such as belief, but it's also far more visceral and immediate than all that, involving our physical senses as they happen, and not just our conceptual sense of self. Our body/minds can be thought of as machines that work a certain way and according to certain rules and patterns. The false sense of self didn't happen overnight - at least, it doesn't appear to have happened that way, anyways. That's where some appreciation for the intricacy of how appearances appear can help put this issue into perspective, and I think Singer's notions can be relevant and helpful in that regard.
But, any such help will only be a potential sign post, whereas the existential truth is even far more immediate that the existential lie. So, in that existential truth, there is no path, no gradual change that is necessary.
Very nice string of posts here Muttley. |
|
|
|
Post by Figgles on Feb 14, 2021 23:51:40 GMT
& You too Esponja. It's fun to watch really great conversations like this one unfold when the kind of sincerity you are demonstrating is in play. |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 15, 2021 4:22:56 GMT
Let us say God has fallen into the dream. So you agree the creator behind the scene now? eh? It's only a metaphor. Try not to dwell on it. You accidentally put your leg on the trap, eh? It's okay. |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 15, 2021 4:30:51 GMT
We don't have to consider there is no personal I. We are learning how dream is getting created when we have certain illusion. When we believe in control, it is creating the situation where we have to experience the control.The belief in control means there's a belief in an entity/SVP who controls.
yes, without realizing the truth that control is also being dreamt.
You still need a direct seeing! Meet the creator, he will tell you how correct I am!
|
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 15, 2021 4:33:03 GMT
Ok so from perspective of I, in dream, we appear to control. In reality we’re dreaming all of it. Quite cool to ponder isn’t it? So if ‘I’ choose to see how far I can manipulate the dream, that’s just what will happen, has already happened because I’m dreaming it anyway. So I really am limitless ... ?!?! In reality, there is no 'dreamer'. The term 'dream' should be taken as a metaphor... a pointer to all appearance being empty, and not a direct comparison/equivalent to a nighttime dream.
The you that seems to manipulate the dream is a concept only...imagined...thus, but a facet of the dream and not prior to or causal to it...which means, that nothing is actually being manipulated.
The pointer of "Limitless" is not a quality or property that can be ascribed to someone/something, but rather a reference to absence.
It's not manipulating! It's creating! |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 15, 2021 4:34:53 GMT
In reality, there is no 'dreamer'. The term 'dream' should be taken as a metaphor... a pointer to all appearance being empty, and not a direct comparison/equivalent to a nighttime dream.
The you that seems to manipulate the dream is a concept only...imagined...thus, but a facet of the dream and not prior to or causal to it...which means, that nothing is actually being manipulated.
The pointer of "Limitless" is not a quality or property that can be ascribed to someone/something, but rather a reference to absence.
Mmmmm wow! I need to swear.. It’s all imagined? Something, someone still wants to manipulate ‘nothing’ 😂 It's not actually manipulating, it's creating the entire dream, that's why the unfolding dream changes it's direction when we see something clearly. YOU has seen something clearly, so it starts creating differently. |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 15, 2021 4:39:49 GMT
I am not saying I personally create things in my world. I am dreaming everything together which includes everything that happens here. When you ascribe 'dreaming' to 'I am,' you conceptualize awareness as a something that dreams. That something that seems to be dreaming, is itself a facet of the dream.
I think it's time in this convo to change the pointer term, being used to describe the realm of appearance following SR. "Dream" is being taken by the seeking mind as something more than a metaphorical pointer...and that's what's happening with your idea "we are/I am dreaming all of it."
No-thing is actually dreaming. The seeking mind/SVP keeps trying to keep itself in the picture, while simultaneously trying to see 'beyond' itself. The only thing that will do is realization/seeing through of the SVP.
Do you feel you have seen through the SVP....are you speaking from SR?
All I know is and the thing I know that you don't know is, I know I am creating the reality and I re-orchestrate the universe when I reach the clarity. But unfortunately you don't know that. If SR is self-realization, then I know my real SELF but you don't know that because still you don't know you are creating the reality. |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 15, 2021 4:42:53 GMT
The who dreams actually creates the dream of manipulation out of delusion, once he sees through this illusion, he stops creating such a dream.
Your seeing of a ' who/he' that stops and starts creating certain stuff and that sees through illusions, is itself, an illusion. you don't have the reference unfortunately. This is not something I can make you understand. Once you see, you know what I mean! |
|
|
|
Post by Gopal on Feb 15, 2021 4:45:34 GMT
We speak of identity in these abstract terms, such as belief, but it's also far more visceral and immediate than all that, involving our physical senses as they happen, and not just our conceptual sense of self. Our body/minds can be thought of as machines that work a certain way and according to certain rules and patterns. The false sense of self didn't happen overnight - at least, it doesn't appear to have happened that way, anyways. That's where some appreciation for the intricacy of how appearances appear can help put this issue into perspective, and I think Singer's notions can be relevant and helpful in that regard.
But, any such help will only be a potential sign post, whereas the existential truth is even far more immediate that the existential lie. So, in that existential truth, there is no path, no gradual change that is necessary.
It seems the deep programming needs to fall apart somehow. The mind feels confused by all of this now. I’ve been here several times then get frustrated and ditch ‘trying’ for a while and work with what I’ve got -subconscious reprogramming, mindfulness, meditation, breath work- it makes this reality seem easier but I know that’s not it. Any action taken towards any direction wouldn't work. 'Nothing can be done' has to be seen clearly. What you control your action to get certain outcome, it would create the controlling and lose control indefinitely, it would never come to an end until we see the illusion of controlling. controlling creates the lose of control, lose of control re-enforces the control, it goes on and on. As long you do something with your anger,frustration, that doing(Whatever it could be), it will repeat indefinitely. |
|
